#31 – The Federal Bureau of Happy Retirements with Jerri Williams

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I’m a massive fan of books and movies about the FBI. If my wife sees me reading, she can often assume it’s some story about counterintelligence or criminal profiling. One night, I was enjoying a podcast called FBI Retired Case File Review, and it dawned on me that as someone with my own podcast, I could just ask the host to be a guest. To my delight, she agreed.

Jerri Williams retired after serving 26 years as a special agent in the FBI. In addition to her podcast, she does work as a technical consultant for major TV networks and production companies. She’s also the author of several books, both fiction and non-fiction. Through her story-telling and interviews with retired FBI agents, she debunks myths and misconceptions with a mission to show the public who the FBI is and what the FBI does. Her podcast has more than 300 episodes and 10 million downloads, so I think it’s safe to say: mission accomplished.

Jerri said that talking to me gave her an excuse to reflect on what retirement means, and it felt like therapy. Take her words to heart; perhaps it will for you, too.

Read The Full Transcript From This Episode

(click below to expand and read the full interview)

  • Jerri Williams [00:00:00]:
    When I say that I look at retirement as doing what you want to do, when you want to do it. Make sure you know what that is and that you’re actively participating in your life and finding joy and happiness and doing all the things that you have on your bucket list. This is the time.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:00:20]:
    Do you ever wonder who you’ll be and what you’ll do after your career is over? Wouldn’t it be nice to hear stories from people who figured it out who are thriving in retirement? I’m Ryan Doolittle. After working with the Retire Sooner team for years and researching and writing about how they structure their lifestyles, I know there’s more to be learned. So I’m going straight to the source and taking you with me. My mission with the Happiest Retirees Podcast is to inspire 1 million families to find happiness in retirement. I want to learn how to live an exceptional life from people who do it every day. Let’s get started. Jerry Williams. I am so excited about this interview.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:01:02]:
    I’m a huge fan of your podcast, which is called FBI Retired Case File Review. I don’t even know where to start, but thanks for coming onto the Happiest Retirees Podcast.

    Jerri Williams [00:01:10]:
    Well, I told you this when I received your email. I have been more excited about doing this podcast interview than I have any other interview I’ve done, and I’ve done a lot because of the fact that I’m always thinking about what retirement means to me and what it looks like for me compared to others, and it’s just a fascinating topic. So, yay, let’s do this.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:01:37]:
    Well, in fact, you told me that listening to some of our other episodes was like therapy kind of.

    Jerri Williams [00:01:42]:
    Yeah, it was. Because a lot of times I wonder or question whether I’m doing retirement right because I’m working really hard. And so this was kind of like a validation of retirement. Looks different for a lot of people, and there’s really no wrong way to do it. It’s whatever makes you happy. And that’s what your podcast is all about.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:02:12]:
    That’s right. Wow. Yeah. So that’s one thing that I find with so many of the happy retirees that I talk to is that they’re so busy, they’re wondering, you know, I don’t feel retired. I’m, like, more busy than ever.

    Jerri Williams [00:02:25]:
    Well, I think that’s definitely a theme that I can jump in on, because I feel the same way.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:02:31]:
    So, again, like I said, I’m so excited about this episode that I’ve been trying to figure out where to start. But I think we’ll start with your career because I have so many questions about your time. You spent 26 years working as a special agent for the FBI, right?

    Jerri Williams [00:02:47]:
    That’s right. Yeah.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:02:48]:
    Well, yeah. And speaking of. So you’ve had some incredible cases in your own, right, and you’ve done reviews. So for people who don’t know each episode you review, like the entire case and you’ve reviewed some of your own, do you want to highlight a couple of your own big cases and what happened there?

    Jerri Williams [00:03:09]:
    Yeah. So I’ve had several big cases that I’ve been able to talk about on the podcast, but one that I actually fictionalized for one of my novels was a Ponzi scheme case that was really pretty special because it was at the time the largest ever charity Ponzi scheme in the country. You know, it involved $350 million worth of people donating to what they thought was their favorite charity. And. And in some cases, the money did get there because almost in every situation, a Ponzi scheme has some legitimacy to it, and then it just kind of falls apart. But, yeah, they were. They thought they were giving to their favorite charities. And the end it turned out to be a Ponzi scheme.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:04:03]:
    Was that the one you. You mentioned, long term undercover work? Was that that case?

    Jerri Williams [00:04:09]:
    You mean for me?

    Ryan Doolittle [00:04:11]:
    Yeah.

    Jerri Williams [00:04:11]:
    No, I’ve never done any long term undercover work. I’ve actually done. My undercover work has basically been safe and afar over the phone, playing roles while making calls over the phone, because I spent most of my career investigating fraud and economic crimes. And so whenever I’ve had a role, it’s been something like that where it’s temporary and it’s very, very short term. But I had. There was not anyone playing undercover in that particular case because it was almost all historical. The crime had already occurred. We came in, shut everything down, and now we’re in the business.

    Jerri Williams [00:05:02]:
    We’re in the business of gathering that information. A lot of times you might have an investigation which is ongoing, and you’re using undercover as a tool to gather more evidence before the crime is stopped or taken down. And so those are just, you know, two different ways of looking at a case. And so in my Ponzi scheme case, we did not use any of those investigative tools.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:05:28]:
    Gotcha. Okay, well, and I think, and I’m guilty this because I. I’m such a fan of FBI shows and movies and all that, but you made a really good point. I was reading something you had written and you said, you know, with a gun, which is kind of the more like, exciting thing people think of. People can steal hundreds, but with a lie, they can steal millions. Which is kind of where you came in with those fraud cases.

    Jerri Williams [00:05:54]:
    Yeah, that’s. That’s my tagline. And it’s just, it’s just so true because a lot of times we talk a lot about, you know, violent crime and we’re talking about. Which of course, is something that is just devastating for our country. But a lot of times they don’t really think a lot. People don’t think a lot. The public doesn’t think a lot about how devastating financial crimes are too. I mean, millions and millions and millions of.

    Jerri Williams [00:06:24]:
    I’m sure it’s Billions of dollars are lost every year through. Through fraud.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:06:29]:
    Oh, and I can only imagine. And this is especially relevant to retirees who, you know, work all their life to save money. And if someone just stole it at the end, they’d be. It’s just hard to even think about.

    Jerri Williams [00:06:43]:
    Yeah. I mean, when you talk about violence, you know, taking somebody’s life savings, I mean, that’s violence. That’s financial violence.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:06:53]:
    Yes, yes. Yeah. And I think the one that everyone. The most recent or not the most recent, I’m sure it’s happening a lot, but the most famous recent one was the one out of New York, and now I’m forgetting his name, but.

    Jerri Williams [00:07:07]:
    Oh, you mean Madoff?

    Ryan Doolittle [00:07:10]:
    Bernie Madoff.

    Jerri Williams [00:07:11]:
    Yes, yes. How could we forget his name? I know.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:07:18]:
    Maybe I’m trying to block him out. It’s too scary to think about, but. Yeah, that was the most. Just heartbreaking one.

    Jerri Williams [00:07:24]:
    Yeah.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:07:25]:
    Okay, so you worked 26 years in the FBI, and now you’re on a mission to show the public who the FBI is and what the FBI does. Tell me a little bit about how you got from being a special agent to what you’re doing now. The transition and all of that.

    Jerri Williams [00:07:43]:
    The transition was pretty easy because in the last five years of my FBI career, I was appointed as the spokesperson and, you know, as the media rep. And it was my.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:07:56]:
    Wow, that’s a whole new skill, isn’t it, from what you were doing?

    Jerri Williams [00:08:00]:
    Yeah, actually, I did it for many, many years before I became the primary person I had been. So for a total of 12 years, I was either the primary person or the backup. But when the person that was doing it full time retired, then I was given the full time position. And it’s like, even at most police departments, the person that is talking to the media, who’s dealing with the public is a sworn law enforcement officer. And so in the FBI in some offices, it’s still the case where it is a veteran agent who’s going out there representing the field office and representing the special agent in charge of the whole office when it comes to, you know, that forward facing, you know, with the public. And so. And Philadelphia, Philadelphia now I don’t think has an agent doing it. They have a public affairs specialist.

    Jerri Williams [00:09:00]:
    But when I was doing it was an agent, and I did that for five years. And so, you know, being in front of the mic, behind the mic and, you know, doing all of that was something, a skill that I definitely picked up during the end of my career. And then, and this is important to say because I think a lot of retirees will be surprised to hear this. The FBI has a mandatory retirement of 57.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:09:28]:
    Okay. Which is young. I mean. Yeah, as far as retirement goes. Right.

    Jerri Williams [00:09:32]:
    Yeah, it is. And you know, for most people, it’s too young for them to decide to, you know, play pickleball or golf all day. And so, you know, they’re looking. And a lot of times they, it’s at the same age that their kids are going off to college too, or have just finished college. And so it’s a matter financially of, of not being able to just sit back and retire on your pension. Because we do have a pension. And so almost all agents leave the FBI and go to a post FBI position. And because that’s going to happen, they usually leave as soon as they’re eligible, which is age 50 with at least 20 years of service.

    Jerri Williams [00:10:25]:
    And so. Yeah, and so most agents leave in their early 50s to a post FBI career. A lot of times. Like by that time, by the time I was In, I was 51 and I left the FBI, I had had 26 years in of working very hard. And so it was. I was ready for. I love the FBI and it was a wonderful job, but I was ready to move on.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:10:52]:
    Yeah, I would imagine too, in the FBI you have to be so buttoned down, and by the book, I’m guessing. So did you feel a little bit of breathing room as you moved on to your next career?

    Jerri Williams [00:11:04]:
    You know, no, I don’t think so. I don’t think I changed that much as far as being buttoned down. You know, there’s a saying. There’s a saying in the FBI, and this has a lot to do with our mindset for retirement also. And that is that the FBI is not what you do, but who you are. And of course, that can play on your. I mean, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard That so many times. And recently, I think when I interviewed the FBI director on my podcast, I’m pretty sure that he actually said that also.

    Jerri Williams [00:11:40]:
    So it is like a mindset that. Or maybe even a brainwashing. I don’t know that we get. So that transition of retiring and continuing with the same values that you had as an agent, it’s hard to shake. Because, again, being an agent is not what you do or what you did, but who you are, who you are.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:12:10]:
    And yeah, just a quick aside. I listened to that episode with. It was with Director Christopher Wray, correct?

    Jerri Williams [00:12:16]:
    Yes.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:12:17]:
    That was fantastic. It was so impressive to hear the way you two spoke with each other. And I could feel the respect coming from him to you, which was, I don’t know, sort of touching because he’s such a big shot. I mean, I’m not trying to say anything. He’s just a big position. Right. And you could tell he was like, wanted to learn from you, which was really.

    Jerri Williams [00:12:37]:
    It was unbelievable. It was one of those, you know, how you. You dream about something and you think, nah, it’s never going to happen. And then you just say to yourself, well, all they can say is, no, Exactly.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:12:49]:
    Yeah.

    Jerri Williams [00:12:50]:
    And so that’s exactly what happened. It was. You know, I was coming up on my 300th episode, and as a podcaster, for some reason, 300 is like the pinnacle. You know, when you get to 300, you’ve made it. So I wanted to do something really special, and I looked to see how many podcast that the director had done, and there weren’t any. You know, there was zero. There was zero. I mean, if you count being interviewed by NPR and them turning it into a podcast episode, whether you could count that.

    Jerri Williams [00:13:22]:
    But he was really doing a news program, you know, like 60 minutes, and then they’ll turn it into a podcast episode. But actually, being on a podcast with a podcast caster. No. But I thought, I’m just. I’m gonna. I’m gonna do it now. I had met him, and he. He knew of me not just a photo op or something, because I had won the one.

    Jerri Williams [00:13:48]:
    I had been honored by the FBI Agents association as their distinguished service honoree. And a part of that. That award was being able to sit with the director for dinner at their event. And so I sat next to.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:14:07]:
    Wow.

    Jerri Williams [00:14:07]:
    To Director Ray at this event. And during that time, I made sure he pulled out his cell phone, and we made sure that he subscribed and followed my podcast.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:14:18]:
    And always be networking, Jerry.

    Jerri Williams [00:14:20]:
    Always be networking. And so he knew about the podcast he claimed that he had heard some of the episodes, but again, he wasn’t following it. So I made sure that he was following the show. And so when the ask was made, I had to get through his people first. But, you know, when the ask was made, it was a lot easier for him and them to say yes because they knew the show and what I was doing and that it was going to be a positive experience. Even though I don’t think I held back. I think I asked him the questions that I knew that listeners, both from the public, retired agents, active agents, would want to know.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:15:09]:
    It was not fluff. You challenged him, which was also impressive to me. And I can say I’m glad you got to talk to him personally, because I live out in near Hollywood, so I can say that the more people that get involved, the worse it gets, Right.

    Jerri Williams [00:15:26]:
    Well, as a media person, a media rep or public affairs person, I know all about that.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:15:32]:
    Okay. Yes.

    Jerri Williams [00:15:34]:
    I mean, I was the gatekeeper for a while because. And again, I keep thinking of things, but post FBI, I took a position for seven years as the media director for septa, which is the Philadelphia public transit system with the trains, the buses, the subways and the trolleys. And I did that for seven years. So, you know, just being in front and being the gatekeeper for the transit agency, you know, I know that there’s always those people that are double checking to make sure of the intentions of your intentions when you request an interview.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:16:18]:
    They’re always on the lookout. What. What will be bad for our person. Yeah. And for anyone, because we have a lot of listeners in Atlanta. So SEPTA would be probably the MARTA of Pennsylvania.

    Jerri Williams [00:16:31]:
    Absolutely.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:16:32]:
    Yeah. And I should say, since the way you were talking about FBI Director Ray, I had that same experience with you because I was. I. It may have been that episode, I can’t quite remember, but I was listening to your show and I thought, wait a minute, why don’t I just see if I could reach out to her and see if she’ll be on this show? And you responded, I mean, right away, which I thought was so considerate, but for some reason, the way you started the sentence, I thought you were saying no. You said, hey, thanks so much for reaching out. And I accept. It was like the greatest, like, surprise. So thank you.

    Jerri Williams [00:17:10]:
    You’re welcome.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:17:11]:
    Leave it to the writer to leave suspense. Okay, so I want to talk. So, I mean, I could talk to you forever about the FBI. And we can go back to that, you know, throughout this. But as you transitioned and as you finished with septa. I don’t know if this exactly coincided, but your. I think it was your daughter had a kid. You had your first grandkid, maybe, or maybe it wasn’t the first, but they were in Raleigh, North Carolina, and so you wanted to live near them, so you moved there.

    Jerri Williams [00:17:45]:
    Yeah, there was. There was a few years in between there.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:17:48]:
    Okay.

    Jerri Williams [00:17:49]:
    And between that. But I actually. Let me do the timeline with some. With some dates. So I retired from the FBI in 2008. I went directly working with SEPTA, which is why I retired. I might have been with the FBI for another few years, because, again, mandatory is not till 57.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:18:13]:
    Right.

    Jerri Williams [00:18:13]:
    But I got this call and there was an opening at septa, and they were really, really interested in me applying. And I thought, well, I can’t give up this opportunity to do that. And so I applied and I got the job, and so I left the FBI. So, like I said, I might have stayed a little bit longer if I hadn’t had that opportunity. But when the door opens, you gotta go through.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:18:36]:
    It was sort of an offer you couldn’t refuse.

    Jerri Williams [00:18:38]:
    Exactly. Exactly. So then I stayed with them for seven years. But during that time period, even before I left the. I left the FBI, maybe two years before I left the FBI, I started writing my first crime novel.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:18:54]:
    Oh.

    Jerri Williams [00:18:54]:
    Which is Pay to Play. So I’ve always known that I wanted to write a book. And like a lot of people, they say that, you know, I never really started, but I had this opportunity to go to Guam for the FBI. And while. Yeah, while I was at Guam. At Guam, I took everything, all the notes and all the research and all the different things that I had on looking into this writing this crime novel, which was based on a true case, I took everything with me. And while I was there, I was there for at least a week or so. I used that time in the evening to organize everything and work on an outline.

    Jerri Williams [00:19:38]:
    And so that got me started. And once I got the outline going, I was working on this crime novel. So that was always a goal. Always a goal for me to be an author, even the whole time I was with septa. And the reason I left SEPTA after seven years is because I had a literary agent, which is hard to get, by the way.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:20:01]:
    So I don’t know, you pulled that off kind of quickly.

    Jerri Williams [00:20:05]:
    Well, Thriller Fest, you know, for anybody. Yes, anybody writing a thriller book or mystery or crime novel or anything like that. There is now. I’m doing a pitch for Thriller Fest, but there is a conference in New York every May, June and they have what they called Agent Fest, where you can do, like, speed dating with agents.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:20:29]:
    Oh.

    Jerri Williams [00:20:30]:
    And that’s where I went and I pitched my book and I. And I got the agent. So, going back to the story.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:20:37]:
    Yeah, sorry I derailed you. Don’t tell septa.

    Jerri Williams [00:20:42]:
    I see what you did there. So I left when it was time. When I thought it was time for this book to be published, I wanted to focus on that, and that’s how the podcast stopped. So none of the stuff that I’ve done has been by chance. It has always been part of my post FBI retirement plan to become this bestselling authority that hasn’t worked out the way that I want it to.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:21:14]:
    But you’re getting there.

    Jerri Williams [00:21:18]:
    I’m doing my best. So I left SEPTA because I wanted to concentrate. I didn’t need the money. I was already getting my FBI pension. I stayed with SEPTA long enough to be vested to get a pension from them. And so it was like, I don’t have to work. Let’s spend this time. By that time now, I’m 58 when I left SEPTA, so I’m still pretty young when I finally stopped working for someone else, let me put it that way, and calling it retirement.

    Jerri Williams [00:21:48]:
    And so that’s when the whole content creator thing started because I needed to build a platform. You’ve heard that as an author, where you build a platform so that you can potentially pull in people to read your books. And I decided that to do that, build that platform, I would start a podcast. Because I knew so many agents with wonderful cases in Philadelphia. I just thought, well, these stories need to be told again. My media person and promoting the positive perception of the FBI that. That I picked up when I was doing the job professionally with the FBI and then even with septa, learning how to promote this public image. And so I decided, okay, I’ll do a podcast and I will interview retired agents about their cases, you know, and take it from.

    Jerri Williams [00:22:53]:
    And a lot of time you’ll have a podcast with an FBI agent and they’re talking about their whole career, you know, when did you join and why? You know, all of that stuff. Yeah, I do that, but I do that at the very end. I want to concentrate on the case. So I take that case from the moment they were assigned that case to the very end when hopefully somebody goes to prison.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:23:14]:
    Right? Yeah.

    Jerri Williams [00:23:16]:
    And what happened was, is that the podcast, I published two crime novels and two nonfiction books. But the podcast is really what took off. You know, it took off and it became a Thing unto itself. And I have been doing this now. It will be nine years in January. Yes. I started in 2016, January of 2016, doing this podcast. And like I said, it just has taken off.

    Jerri Williams [00:23:50]:
    And I will be publishing my 330th episode next next week.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:23:58]:
    Well, congratulations. And does it seem like. So like you said at first, the podcast was a way of building a platform to find potential readers. Do you. Do you ever feel like now your books are a platform to find potential listeners?

    Jerri Williams [00:24:15]:
    That’s a good way. That’s a good way to say it, because definitely the. When most people who know me or learn about me, it’s through the podcast. And I would love it. I mean, I’ve got lots and lots of podcast listeners. I would love it if each and every one of them went out and bought my books. But that’s not necessarily the case. It’s.

    Jerri Williams [00:24:37]:
    There are different audiences, but I’ve been very successful in the podcasting business. And luckily, some of that has also rubbed off onto the author platform, too.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:24:51]:
    Oh, good. Well, yeah, I can see why. And here’s a little. I’m just going to spitball a title for you. You have the right to remain retired. Could you use that for something?

    Jerri Williams [00:25:04]:
    I like that. I actually just interviewed an agent. All my episodes have FBI agents. They have to. It has to have an FBI employee, but sometimes they’re accompanied by one of their law enforcement partners. And I just interviewed a Homeland of Security Investigations agent along with his FBI partner, and he has a podcast called the Right to Remain Silent, so.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:25:34]:
    Oh, okay.

    Jerri Williams [00:25:35]:
    The name’s already taken.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:25:37]:
    Oh, dang it. So now I’m going to ask this. This is like a. Could be a hard question, you know, but we’ll see. Are you happy?

    Jerri Williams [00:25:49]:
    Yes, absolutely. Look at this.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:25:51]:
    That was easy.

    Jerri Williams [00:25:53]:
    Yeah, Very, very easy. And I’m happy because you. I thought you were going to ask me this. You haven’t asked me this, but. Which is. What is my definition of retirement?

    Ryan Doolittle [00:26:04]:
    Yes, I do want to know that.

    Jerri Williams [00:26:06]:
    Okay. My definition of retirement is doing what you want to do when you want to do it. And there is no better freedom than that. And, of course, freedom is one of the best things to make someone happy.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:26:23]:
    Yes, for sure.

    Jerri Williams [00:26:25]:
    So, yeah, I am definitely doing what I want to do when I want to do it. I mean, the greatest thing about retirement is not having to deal with an alarm clock. So I wake up when my body wants me to wake up, and I get out of bed when my mind wants me to actually roll out of bed. And having that Freedom is what it is all about.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:26:51]:
    Did you have a moment where you took a hammer and smashed the alarm clock?

    Jerri Williams [00:26:57]:
    There was as soon as I retired. I mean, I took that alarm clock and I put it up in the closet and eventually either gave it away or threw it away. But it was, it was probably the next day when, you know, as soon as I realized I don’t need this alarm clock, you know, it was gone.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:27:18]:
    Yeah, I can’t wait for that.

    Jerri Williams [00:27:21]:
    Bye.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:27:22]:
    Yeah. Okay, so you, you currently, as we mentioned, you live in Raleigh, North Carolina. Tell me. So we’ve done research on, we try to find out what happy retirees do so that people can try to emulate that and be happy. And a lot of the people we talk to live near at least one of their adult children. You know, it doesn’t have to be like right there, but close enough to see them. It sounds like. So I don’t know how many adult children you have, but you live near your daughter?

    Jerri Williams [00:27:50]:
    Yes, I actually have three kids. My girls are twins, are identical twins. And I am working on the daughter that I left behind in South Jersey, outside of Philadelphia. I’m working on her coming to Raleigh every single day. She’s getting sick of it, matter of fact.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:28:10]:
    Yeah, as only a mother can do, right?

    Jerri Williams [00:28:12]:
    Yes. But her twin sister got married and moved down here. Well, when she had her first kid in 2018, I was retired by then. I retired from SEPTA at the very end of 2015. And so I had been, you know, she had married in New Jersey, which meant that I had to do all the work, but all the pre, all the pre planning wedding work. But you know, she was already down here in Raleigh and she had the first, my first grandson, Carter. And my husband and I were coming down every other month and she was coming up and we were trying to see him. And when she got pregnant with my second grandson, I just thought, I don’t want to do this anymore.

    Jerri Williams [00:28:59]:
    I want to be able to be a hands on. I was a little jealous of her mother in law who was taking care of Carter on a regular basis. And I thought, well, we could share that, you know, we could share that responsibility. So I begged and begged and begged my husband and in 2020, in the middle of COVID we sold our house and moved down to Raleigh and I started taking care of my grandkids Tuesday, Thursday, every other Friday. And at the same time was, you know, writing the books and you know, blogging on my website and of course doing the podcast. And so yeah, I was extremely have Been extremely busy, you know, since we’ve moved down here because. Got a lot of responsibilities.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:29:52]:
    Yeah. I was going to ask, if I have a two year old, if I move to Raleigh, can I slip him into your care?

    Jerri Williams [00:30:00]:
    Well, actually this, this, this year I’m starting to transition because the youngest is four. And so he started preschool and so it was still supposed to be Tuesday, Thursday, and every other Friday afternoon we would, my husband and I would go pick him up from preschool and bring him to our house. And then my daughter realized that she works early. She is an associate director of a Y and she works early on Tuesdays. It makes more sense for her just to pick them up. So now starting this week, we just have him on Thursday and every other Friday. So I’m actually freeing up time so that I can, you know, of course, do more work on the podcast. So I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

    Jerri Williams [00:30:50]:
    My time has already taken.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:30:52]:
    So it’s like, it’s like your grandkid is your boss and you’re getting some time off.

    Jerri Williams [00:30:56]:
    Yes, yes, yes. Oh, well, you know, you have a two year old, there are boss. They definitely are bosses.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:31:03]:
    Oh my gosh. There’s no way around that.

    Jerri Williams [00:31:05]:
    Yeah, yeah, they definitely tell us what to do and where to be and what to bring with us when we come.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:31:12]:
    So if he’s having a bad day, I’m having a bad day.

    Jerri Williams [00:31:16]:
    Yeah, but it was so wonderful. And I know for a lot of people who retire, that is one of the joys of their retirement is having that opportunity to kind of have a do over, you know, to spend time with the grandkids and play with them and take them places that you couldn’t do when you were working or do as much as you wanted to do when you were working. But as a retiree who doesn’t have to be anywhere at any time, you know, you’re there, you know, to, to see all of those moments and experience it in a way that you never were able to do as a parent. And that also helps to increase that happiness level.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:32:03]:
    Well, that must be part of that freedom that you had mentioned. Yeah, I know that you had mentioned something about this or maybe I read it in your bio. But I find like sometimes I’m feeling guilty that I’m not spending enough time with them, but then I’m also feeling guilty that I’m not working enough. So I’m just feeling guilty about both and trying to do both.

    Jerri Williams [00:32:24]:
    And yeah, there’s definitely a lot of that, especially when you have a, you know, a high Powered professional job where there is no looking at the clock. There’s. It’s not, you know, it’s not at 5 o’clock, it’s time to go. You know, that just not. Was not part of either of my careers with the FBI or with septa. And so, yeah, you know, being able to concentrate fully on what they, their needs and what they’re doing is. It’s a, It’s a blessing, you know, it really is.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:32:58]:
    Yeah, I can just imagine. And I’m really glad you get to do that. And I hope you get your South Jersey daughter to move down to Raleigh.

    Jerri Williams [00:33:09]:
    So. Wait, man, I do. Before we go on, I have to make sure that everyone knows that I also have a granddaughter. My son, it lives on Whidbey island in Washington state.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:33:22]:
    Oh, wow.

    Jerri Williams [00:33:23]:
    Yes. So I have a five year old granddaughter. So the kids are four, five and six. So, yeah, he’s way out west. So I only see her once a year. I just saw her last month. We had a big family vacation at the beach in the Wilmington area here in North Carolina and they came down. So I got to spend a whole week with her and spoil her.

    Jerri Williams [00:33:45]:
    So I want to make sure that I include Wendy in my discussion of Carter and Cooper, so.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:33:52]:
    Well, Wendy deserves it. I’m glad you. I’m glad you got her into the.

    Jerri Williams [00:33:56]:
    Yes. I had to make sure.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:33:58]:
    Yeah. Yes.

    Jerri Williams [00:34:00]:
    I don’t want any more of that guilt. You know, I already had the parental guilt. I don’t need the grandparent guilt.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:34:06]:
    Yes.

    Jerri Williams [00:34:07]:
    Make sure she gets. I give her credit too.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:34:11]:
    Okay. I want to get. This is getting back to some, some of my. I’m going to nerd out a little bit because I’m so fascinated, but I don’t know the extent of it. But don’t you do some technical advising for. For TV shows about the FBI?

    Jerri Williams [00:34:26]:
    Yeah, I’ve had an opportunity to work on several shows. Some of them just, you know, some basic questions. But I worked on the Class of 09, which was on Hulu, and the executive producer for that, Tom Smith, Tom Rob Smith, he was so great in giving me credit about the help that I gave him on that TV show. Of course, it’s all about the FBI and FBI agents, and it takes place in the past and the future, in the present and the future. It’s really a great show. Oh, okay. But I’m also a consultant on a brand new show that’s gonna come out next year and it’s called Duster. One of the producers is J.J.

    Jerri Williams [00:35:12]:
    abrams.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:35:13]:
    Wow.

    Jerri Williams [00:35:14]:
    I’ve heard of him? Yeah, yeah. You heard of him. And the showrunner is latoya Morgan, who’s been a writer on a lot of shows, and I’ve been working with him on that show for over four years. And so it’s been. Oh, yeah, from the very beginning, before they even started writing the scripts, you know, I’ve been a part of that because it features in a fictionalized role, the first black female FBI agent. And so I am very, very invested in this TV show. They’ve already filmed it. I’ve read all eight of the.

    Jerri Williams [00:35:50]:
    Of the. The script, so I. I know how it goes. I’m. I’m sworn to secrecy with the NDA, so I can’t. I. I can’t tell you anymore. Except for it takes place in the.

    Jerri Williams [00:36:01]:
    In the early. In the early 1970s. And again, the first black female FBI agent. And I just love the show. I think it’s smart and clever, and I can’t wait for it to come out. And I hope my role gets to increase with the show as they promote it and as I hope it gets picked up for additional seasons. You know, fingers crossed.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:36:28]:
    Absolutely. Tell us the name of that one again.

    Jerri Williams [00:36:30]:
    Duster.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:36:31]:
    Duster. Okay. And where do we see it? Where do we find it?

    Jerri Williams [00:36:34]:
    It’s going to be on Max.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:36:36]:
    On Max. Oh, so the kind of HBO Max conglomerate. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. Wow, that’s very exciting.

    Jerri Williams [00:36:44]:
    Yes. Very, very exciting.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:36:46]:
    I wonder. So you go through the script and point out inaccuracies of what the FBI wouldn’t do and that sort of thing.

    Jerri Williams [00:36:54]:
    Well, as an author, as a. As a crime fiction author, I know that the most important thing is the story. So at the beginning, when I started doing this kind of stuff, I was like, oh, that would never happen, you know, but maybe it needs to happen in this particular story, because to get from point, you know, A to point B, you know, we’re gonna have to do this. And so I’m less and less strict about that. Really wouldn’t happen that way. But if I can find ways to make it more plausible and believable, that’s really what I suggest.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:37:32]:
    Right. So sometimes it’s just good for the story, and you’re okay with that. But if you can you massage it to get it more in line. Yeah.

    Jerri Williams [00:37:41]:
    And maybe also, you know, I can help. You know, maybe there’s a line that they used or some dialogue, and I can juice it up a bit. And again, I don’t know how much I’m able to say about this, but, you know, I’ve Been involved from the very beginning. So I’ve talked to the set designers, you know, the costume people, and, you know, just helping them make it real, you know, as real and authentic as possible. It’s been a lot of fun getting.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:38:09]:
    Into some of the myths and that sort of thing that come up in a lot of these scripts. Why does it seems like so many FBI movies have someone who says, like, you know, the local cop who says, don’t give me any of that jurisdiction crap or what? Does that really happen?

    Jerri Williams [00:38:23]:
    No, it does not. I really mean it. That’s probably one of the most irritating things. And when I, when I see that, I have to speak up.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:38:31]:
    Yeah.

    Jerri Williams [00:38:32]:
    Because that whole. The FBI doesn’t play well with others. It’s just not true. I mean, the task force concept has been around for years and years and years. So in every FBI office and many of the different violations, they have task forces where law enforcement partners from other agencies, whether there be other local agencies or state agencies or other federal agencies, are sitting in our office space. You know, they are working as partners with FBI agents and analysts. And, you know, on a day to day basis, they are assigned FBI cars. We pay their overtime.

    Jerri Williams [00:39:14]:
    You know, we know, especially if it’s in a large city, we know all those people. You know, it’s not. We don’t pull up to a crime scene and have to introduce ourselves. We already know everybody, you know. Yeah, that’s the way it is. Our heads of the different offices meet, you know, for lunch on a regular basis. It just is not the way they make it seem. But I get it.

    Jerri Williams [00:39:39]:
    A story is not a story unless something goes wrong.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:39:44]:
    Yeah.

    Jerri Williams [00:39:44]:
    Unless something happens, unless there’s conflict, unless there’s tension. And this is an easy kind of amateur way of creating, of creating that conflict and tension. And so that’s why you see it a lot on in books, TV shows and movies.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:40:01]:
    But it’s not true in reality. It’s like, oh, I’m so glad you’re here, instead of get out of my backyard type of thing.

    Jerri Williams [00:40:08]:
    Absolutely. And it’s not because the FBI is, you know, better and smarter, but we have resources, you know, we have money and equipment. And so if there’s a local police department that needs, you know, something that we have, yes, they’re very welcoming, you know, come on, help us. And the same goes the other direction. You know, if we’re working on a case, of course we want to get the locals involved because they know everybody. You know, they have an historical knowledge of that particular location that they can Share with us and help us. So it’s a win, win to work together. And so, yeah, yeah, that’s.

    Jerri Williams [00:40:50]:
    That’s one of my. I have 20 cliches and misconceptions about the FBI. I actually have a book.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:40:58]:
    Yeah, tell us the exact title of the. Of that book.

    Jerri Williams [00:41:01]:
    The book is called FBI Myths and Misconceptions, A Manual for Armchair Detectives. And I go through 20 cliches about the FBI that you find. Because what most people know about the FBI they get from books, TV and movies. And so these are cliches that are perpetuated, you know, over and over again in some of these crime stories. And so, yeah, I went through and picked out 20 of them, and I put them together in a handy little manual for those who read, watch, and write crime stories and TV shows about the FBI. And for those who want to become FBI agents, they read the book. They want to embarrass themselves when they get to Quantico. So.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:41:53]:
    Okay, so, Jerry, how do you, as you are now, have this freedom, but you found this passion for writing and podcasting? How do you craft that into the day and week and month and life that you want to live? Because that’s a lot of moving parts. How do you do it?

    Jerri Williams [00:42:15]:
    I’m still working on that. I mean, that was one of the reasons that, as I admit it to you, I was wondering if I was doing retirement wrong because. Yeah, because there are times when I’m feeling that pressure that I’ve got something to do, and I wake up in the middle of the night and I need to do this, I need to do that. I mean, I have an audience now that is expecting me to put out an episode. And it’s to a point now where there were maybe for the first five years, I did it every week, and I was not. At the end, I was not happy because it was a grind putting out an episode every week. And so I changed it. Matter of fact, I went to this fabulous.

    Jerri Williams [00:43:01]:
    I travel a lot. It sounds like I’m always here in my home office, but I do like to travel, too. And so I had. I took my. All my, you know, kids, and we went to Paris and Amsterdam and Prague. Prague is one of my favorite. And when I came back, before I left, I didn’t. I was gone for two weeks.

    Jerri Williams [00:43:23]:
    And I told the podcast audience I was gone, I wasn’t going to do a podcast. And that when I came back, instead of every week, it would be every other week now. I just changed that at the end of last, at the End of last year. And now I usually put out three episodes a month.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:43:43]:
    A month?

    Jerri Williams [00:43:44]:
    Okay, yeah, three. And sometimes it might be three in a row. It might be, you know, one and then two right after each other. I determine that as far as my own schedule, and the only reason I did it, I would really still like to do every other week is because I just have so much interest from retired agents. And I felt bad saying, yeah, you can come on the show, let’s record now, and it will go out in six months. And it was like, I don’t like doing that. So.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:44:14]:
    Right.

    Jerri Williams [00:44:15]:
    Just to keep the shelf from building and building with a pile of interviews that have not yet been posted, I decided to add one more a week. And like I said, I’ve been doing that since the end of last year, putting out three a month.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:44:33]:
    Yeah.

    Jerri Williams [00:44:33]:
    And so. And if it becomes too much, then I’ll stop doing it. But right now, and maybe if I can clean up the backlog of interested people, maybe I’ll go back to every other month. But now that I’m only babysitting two days instead of three days, you know, I’m hoping that I can, you know, really feel the difference in that schedule. I’m also. I have a new literary agent who I also met at Thriller Fest, and so I am working on a new two book storyline with her and hopefully we’ll get that out to on submission next year. So trying to get this new crime novel done. Working on the podcast.

    Jerri Williams [00:45:22]:
    I’m not doing any consulting right now because the show is ready to come out, but also blogging and doing my TV and movie reviews. I’m still pretty busy.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:45:35]:
    Yes.

    Jerri Williams [00:45:36]:
    And the occasional podcast interview.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:45:39]:
    Thanks for making time. I was going to say if I went to Thriller Fest, I would have hoped I could also learn to dance like Michael Jackson, but I don’t think that’s part of it.

    Jerri Williams [00:45:47]:
    No, no, they don’t. They don’t have that.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:45:49]:
    Oh, dang it.

    Jerri Williams [00:45:50]:
    Okay, that might be the theme music.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:45:53]:
    I don’t know, but you can’t moonwalk into retirement or something.

    Jerri Williams [00:45:58]:
    Okay, maybe you can. I don’t know.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:46:02]:
    So do you have any tips? I mean, I know that you were wondering if you were doing retirement. Right. And it’s not like there’s any one right or wrong way, but for at least from where, what I’ve read and the people I’ve talked to, you do seem to be doing it the right way. So what tips could you offer someone else who’s thinking about retiring? Or maybe they did retire, but they’re not happy. What can they do to be more like you?

    Jerri Williams [00:46:27]:
    I don’t know if they want to be like me, but I had to say this in order to have a reason to get out of bed. That’s what you’re looking for. Whatever it is that you want to do in retirement, is it enough to make you want to get out of bed at your own time schedule? Not when the alarm clock goes off. But is there something that you have to look forward to? There has to be. You know, you can’t be just ticking down the days until you pass. And I don’t, I don’t want to end on, on a real negative note.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:47:06]:
    No, I think that’s not as negative as it, as it might sound.

    Jerri Williams [00:47:10]:
    Oh, no, I’m getting ready to go there.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:47:12]:
    Oh, okay. Okay.

    Jerri Williams [00:47:13]:
    I’m sorry, but you just don’t know also. So this is, this, this is something that happened last year. I was telling you how I was sharing my babysitting duties with my daughter’s mother in law, who was much younger. I’m now 67 and she was 61. And last August she went to the dentist and something happened in the dentist’s office. But she had a major heart issue.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:47:49]:
    Oh, no.

    Jerri Williams [00:47:50]:
    And she died.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:47:51]:
    Oh, no.

    Jerri Williams [00:47:53]:
    And I always thought I was happy for her and knowing that she had the opportunity to, you know, spend time with our grandsons. But my God, once that happened, it put a fire under me of really looking at what it is that I want to do and making sure that I get it done, that I don’t hold off. Next month we’re going to Madrid and Barcelona and Lisbon. Last year I was in Buenos Aires and Rio and New Zealand. And I travel a lot when I can, but I also just read books and watch movies and TV shows and, you know, spend time and at least on the phone with my friends and laughing and doing all of that, because in these retirement years, you know, you don’t want to squander them and you don’t want to waste them either. And so when I say that I look at retirement as doing what you want to do, when you want to do it, make sure you know what that is and that you’re actively participating in your life and finding joy and happiness and doing all the things that you have on your bucket list, this is the time in your retirement to start checking those off. And so, yeah, that’s my tip for everyone, is that you just don’t know. I like to.

    Jerri Williams [00:49:26]:
    This is really morbid, but I like to think, okay, how much Longer if I have 20 more years. And, you know, I’m 87, you know, what am I doing now to make sure that I have the mobility and the health and all of that to get there? And it really isn’t morbid. It’s part of making sure that I’m living my best life and making sure that I’m doing everything that I can to extend it.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:49:55]:
    It’s like you’re doing a case review of your life as you go.

    Jerri Williams [00:49:59]:
    Yeah. And I, and I know the way I’ve talked about how, you know, I’ve planned out and organized everything, you know, making turns and switches when life brings up something new and different. I’m also planning this retirement and this life. And you know what I hope it’s going to be, and I don’t want to have any regrets. And so I’m making sure I get things done. So that’s why when your email showed up and I saw that it was the Happiest Retirees podcast, you know, I immediately started listening to your episodes and getting that therapy that I needed that I told you about and seeing how other people are doing it. And it’s just been such a pleasure. So I hope that anybody listening to our conversation really gets something out of it, because I certainly have gotten a lot out of the episodes that I’ve had a chance to listen to.

    Jerri Williams [00:50:57]:
    So thank you, Ryan. Thank you very much.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:50:59]:
    Well, thank you, Jerry, because I was so excited when you said yes. And you’ve met the mark and beyond. This has been such a great time talking to you. In fact, you’ll probably get another email in a year from now saying, any chance you could come back?

    Jerri Williams [00:51:18]:
    Oh, I can do that. I could do that. But can we. Can, can we dedicate this episode to Mary Ann Quigley, my daughter’s mother in law? And, you know, just make sure that people know who she is and also use her as just a light to understand that we have to make the best of our retirement years.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:51:42]:
    Absolutely. She. She can inspire us and live on through that. Well, Jerry Williams, the director of the Federal Bureau of Happy Retirements, thank you so much for coming on the Happiest.

    Jerri Williams [00:51:56]:
    Retirees podcast and thank you for having me. This has been as fun and exciting and informative and impactful as I thought it would be. So thank you.

    Ryan Doolittle [00:52:07]:
    Oh, thank you.

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