#230 – How To Squeeze The Most Juice Out Of Retirement With Dr. Riley Moynes

Wes Moss [00:00:36]:
I’m so excited to talk to Dr. Riley Moines. I’ll call you just Riley and. But, but I think you’re a doctor of exactly what we need to talk about here today. And I get the longer I’ve done the Retire Sooner podcast, the more people ask me about what to do next and really want to know what to how to handle the phases that you’ve studied and you’ve written about for so many years. And younger and younger. Riley. I had a 45 year old dad come up to me at a football game just this week and ask about that next phase.

Wes Moss [00:01:13]:
Thinking about selling his company, he brought up Garth Brooks and he said, I think Garth Brooks toured, made a bunch of money. Then he had little kids and he wanted to go to all their games. And so he stopped working for a while and now he’s back on tour and he’s like, I kind of like that idea. I kind of like that. Thought so. But then for most people, if you’re not Garth Brooks, there’s some maybe somewhere in between. And I think that’s what you’ll be able to help us with today. So give us maybe just our listeners.

Wes Moss [00:01:46]:
You’ve won tons of awards. You were a financial advisor at one point, then you’ve written and interviewed people to really discover the different phases of retirement. And this is so perfect for our Retire Sooner audience. And I want to get through that. I want to go through that. But maybe first, just a little bit about your journey as a financial advisor and a writer and in retirement and semi retirement.

Riley Moynes [00:02:12]:
Well, I spent the first 20 years of my working career in public education, a couple of years actually in the classroom at the high school level and subsequently more at the administrative levels. And I decided that it turned out to be 20 years. It wasn’t a 20 year plan or anything, but at about the 20 year period, I realized that I had, as one of my friends said, kind of climbed to the top of the ladder in my field and found that it was leaning against the wrong house. Okay, that was an interesting way of putting it, I thought, and it kind of spoke to me. And I decided that I had gathered enough experience that I could probably be helpful to people to make some wise investment decisions in the financial services area.

Wes Moss [00:03:05]:
So what kind of teacher were you?

Riley Moynes [00:03:06]:
I was a history teacher. History was my specialty, my love. And that’s where much of my undergraduate work was. Even a graduate master’s degree was in history as well. And then I decided to. We had moved away from our home in the Toronto area and we relocated, came back to our home base, as it were, and became involved, as I say, in the financial services area, where I spent another 20 years. We created our own little firm and did some joining and merging and all of that kind of stuff, and spent a number of years very happily as a financial advisor and partner in a couple of wealth management firms and then got to the point where maybe, like Garth Brooks, I had decided it was time to step back a little bit. So a little bit of consulting work with our firm for a couple of years and then kind of launched on what I guess was called retirement.

Riley Moynes [00:04:12]:
And that was where I discovered some things that were kind of a big surprise to me in some ways, kind of negative surprises to me because it wasn’t what I had been told to expect or what I was helping my clients to prepare for.

Wes Moss [00:04:30]:
Well, let me ask you this. So first of all, it’s a big change, right? So going from education to. Well, there’s a lot of education in financial services too.

Riley Moynes [00:04:39]:
Exactly.

Wes Moss [00:04:39]:
But. But to get started in that, after being a t A teacher for all those years, I suspect that like a lot of financial advisors, and I’ve been in the financial advisory business from for a couple of decades now, there’s so much focus on the money side of it. I suspect you probably were broader than that. But the reality is there’s still a lot of focus on dollars and cents and investments and financial planning. So how was that evolution for you over 20 years?

Riley Moynes [00:05:10]:
Well, that was the case and that was how it started. There’s no question about that. As I became more experienced and expert, I like to think, in the field, I realized that there really more to it than that. And so we kind of broadened and helped people to look at some of the estate issues that can be so important, powers of attorney, that kind of thing. And although we were, I think, offering kind of a broader approach to retirement planning, still it wasn’t as broad as the work that I’ve done in the last several years has become. And interestingly enough, right now, much of the work that I do is with financial advisors who ask me to speak to their clients because they understand that what I’ve been talking about, which is in effect the psychological changes and challenges that almost always accompany retirement, but that very few people are talking about as yet, is significant. And although they’re not perhaps trained or experienced in that field, they recognize that there is a component of retirement planning that has to include that, and that’s where they often invite me to speak to their clients. So the work that I have done has come as a surprise to me, frankly, and it has, I hope, been helpful to many others.

Riley Moynes [00:06:42]:
I speak of the TED talk that I was lucky enough to be invited.

Wes Moss [00:06:46]:
To, which by the way, you nailed there was such a good time. That’s so hard. I look at that and I hope I’m never invited to a TED Talk because as much speaking as I’ve done, I just feel like it’s a one shot, it’s 12 to 15 minutes and basically have to nail it. And you did.

Riley Moynes [00:07:05]:
Yes. Well, thank you so much for saying that. It was the result of a lot of over hundreds of hours of effort and I’ll never do it again because I couldn’t bring myself to do it again. But it’s so gratifying to have had now, within a couple of years, over 4.5 million views, which is, as I say, gratifying in the sense that it has been received well. But secondly, it’s also to me, instructive of the fact that this topic is one of widespread interest and it’s just, and disillusionment.

Wes Moss [00:07:44]:
I mean, we have this. I think part of it is that you break it down into a really understandable framework where, which is kind of the, is a digestible way to think about the phases which we’re gonna get to.

Riley Moynes [00:07:59]:
Right.

Wes Moss [00:07:59]:
You went through your own phases. So I, I first of all, give us your analogy about the. And we all know 10,000 people a day, but you, you have an analogy of retirees washing ashore.

Riley Moynes [00:08:11]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, yes. I mean, it, it’s, it’s, it’s a proven fact that There are about 10,000 North Americans who retire every day. And I make reference to the fact that I think that represents a retirement tsunami. And here they are kind of being washed ashore and really, in many cases just not having a clue as to what to expect. They’ve been told that retirement should look like a certain thing. I call it phase one. And it is for a time.

Riley Moynes [00:08:47]:
But the truth is that many, many retirees, baby boomers in particular, are likely to spend up to one third of their lives, quite likely 30 years in retirement, which is an awesome consideration when back in 1950 we know that the average life expectancy in North America was about was 68 years and therefore 3 years of retirement. So the changes that have taken place simply through longevity and increasing longevity are awesome. And while you can build a retirement, perhaps a three year retirement on what everybody thinks retirement should look like, you can’t build a 30 year retirement on it all being about you, which is essentially phase one.

Wes Moss [00:09:35]:
And I think this is also important and maybe just get your comment around whether this pertains. Well, I’m going to save this. I want to ask you, I’m going to circle back to this, which is how much do your phases, which we’re going to start with in just a second. How much of those phases apply to somebody who is 45 versus 65 versus 75. But, but hold that thought. So let’s go into maybe first you had a tough journey, you had a tough couple of years right before you discovered the four phases which you’ve written about. Tell us about your struggles.

Riley Moynes [00:10:12]:
Yeah, well, I experienced what I call phase one, which I call the vacation phase, which is what is typically told to people as to what retirement should be. That represents the ideal retirement. There’s a bunch of bucket list activities that you have either mentally or physically put in place and you want to start checking them off. And that often includes travel. Although travel seems to be a consistent through the four phases, it may well include improving your golf or your pickleball game and there may be some new golf clubs involved and maybe there’s a new sailboat and maybe there’s a warm weather place and there’s lots of travel and cavorting along the beach at sunset with a glass of wine in your hand with a loved one nearby. That’s the image that people are presented with as being the ideal retirement. And I experienced that and very gratefully so. But there came a time for me and it has proven to be the case for thousands of other people, if not more than that, that at the end of, for me it was about two years.

Riley Moynes [00:11:26]:
It typically phase one lasts between one and two years in my research. And there comes a day when you kind of realize that perhaps too much of a good thing is too much. And I found myself bored, frankly. I was busy enough, but I wasn’t really doing anything that I thought was particularly meaningful or of any real significance. You can only play so much golf, I discovered, and I started to kind of wonder this, by the way, did.

Wes Moss [00:11:58]:
You get better at golf? I always wonder that. If you go from playing once a month to twice a week, did you get any better?

Riley Moynes [00:12:05]:
I hate practicing and so the answer is no. But I enjoyed being out there. And every now and then something good would happen and you live on that.

Wes Moss [00:12:15]:
So again, that’s a bonus tip in phase one. Your golf likely won’t get much better.

Riley Moynes [00:12:20]:
That’s right. You just spend more time at it, that’s all.

Wes Moss [00:12:24]:
So, so, so again, you’re right. That’s the marketing image of retirement. Right? It’s. You describe it so well. It’s sunsets, it’s the beach, a glass of wine, maybe a warm weather place.

Riley Moynes [00:12:36]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:12:36]:
Did you and golf and pickleball, when did that creep in to your mind? A little bit that this is great, but. This is great, but.

Riley Moynes [00:12:45]:
Well, about two years.

Wes Moss [00:12:46]:
Do you remember like what was happening or was it the same thing and then you just started to get kind of bored?

Riley Moynes [00:12:52]:
Yes, it was the same thing for about a two year period. And again, a period for which I’m very grateful and had some wonderful experiences, but I was bored. And I mean people, people need to feel that they’re making a contribution of some sort in some way. I’m convinced that that’s genetically wired within us and I wasn’t doing that. And I was trying to figure out what it was all about. I mean, if it wasn’t what I was told it was, then what was it?

Wes Moss [00:13:26]:
And by the way, how old were you?

Riley Moynes [00:13:28]:
I was, I was 63.

Wes Moss [00:13:34]:
So I would call that still. That’s a pretty early. That’s a young retiree. That’s an early retiree, I guess.

Riley Moynes [00:13:40]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:13:41]:
So 63, you lived it up for a year or two and it kind of. You got a little more and more on board and then boom.

Riley Moynes [00:13:48]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:13:48]:
Did you hit phase two or did you not know these. I guess you didn’t know these phases just yet. So tell us about the next phase.

Riley Moynes [00:13:54]:
Well, I didn’t know about. About the phases and I can only tell you what I did which led to the framework that I created, that which I have called the four phases. I did what I. My fallback position is when you’re trying to find an answer to something, you check the research. So I went to the retirement planning research. And what did it tell me? Well, it told me exactly what we’ve already talked about, that the emphas emphasis is on investments, somewhat broadened by considerations perhaps of insurance, wills, powers of attorney, estate plans, all of that. Kind of stuff, critically important stuff, gotta be done for sure. But it wasn’t what I was looking for.

Riley Moynes [00:14:34]:
And so I began then with my kind of fallback position, which was, okay, so let’s talk to people. And I was referred initially to probably a dozen or so people, retirees, who I was told had retirement figured out, whatever the heck that meant. And so I put together a series of questions that I wanted to ask them. And I always finished up with the question, how do you squeeze all the juice out of retirement? That was always my last question. So as time went on and I spent about three years at this, if not more, and one, you know, one interview led to another interview, oh, you should talk to so and so. They’ve also got it figured out. And so it got deeper and broader and more intensive, frankly. And in the end it was probably 150 to 175 pretty in depth interviews that I had created.

Riley Moynes [00:15:29]:
And I had a massive information. And then the question was, well, how do you make sense of it all? And that was the real challenge, was trying to make sense of that all. So in my teaching background I had discovered that. And I learn better if I am presented with a framework within which I can make sense of information. So I would always in my teaching career, I would try to create a theme for every lesson so that I could keep coming back to that and that the students could keep coming back to that. So I was looking for a theme or a framework. And I discovered after much trial and tribulation and angst and frustration, that the four phases kind of emerged and made sense to me. Then I had to field test it.

Riley Moynes [00:16:23]:
And I went back to dozens of the same people that I had spoken to originally and increasingly and almost very consistently, there was kind of confirmation that that made sense for them, that that spoke to them. It certainly spoke to me. And it helped me to understand kind of where I was and what I had been through. And so now it’s been found, I think, to be a helpful framework for people, which is part of the book and certainly part of the TED Talk as well.

Wes Moss [00:16:58]:
Well, again, and that’s outlined in the Money Coach, which is the book.

Riley Moynes [00:17:03]:
Well, the Money Coach was a book that I wrote a number of years ago. And it was an attempt to really provide good financial advice in a simple kind of way. I had USA Today in mind when I was putting that together and some of the graphics that they use so effectively, and that’s what we were able to create with the Money Coach. But no, in fact, the Research that I’ve done led really to.

Wes Moss [00:17:34]:
Oh, that’s in the four phases.

Riley Moynes [00:17:36]:
The four phases of retirement. Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:17:41]:
If you’ve ever done a Jane Fonda workout or if you remember as a kid, Rocky running the steps, and if Michael keaton is still Mr. Mom to you, then guess what? It’s officially time to do some retirement planning. It’s Wes Moss from Money Matters. Weren’t those the good old days? Well, with a little bit of retirement planning, there are plenty of good days ahead. Schedule an appointment with our team today@yourwealth.com that’s y o u r yourwealth.com. well, let’s talk about phase two, then. So phase one, vacation phase. It’s fun, but it gets boring.

Wes Moss [00:18:20]:
Tell us about phase two.

Riley Moynes [00:18:22]:
Oh, phase two is I. I guess what I was, to an extent experiencing. Phase two is. Is the phase where. Where we feel loss and we feel lost. And that’s kind of where I, where I was at the time, feel loss and we feel lost. So in phase two, we suffer five unavoidable losses, all directly related to retirement. So briefly, they are the loss of structure.

Riley Moynes [00:18:57]:
For most of us, if we’re working outside the home, we’ve got a structure. Even if we’re working domestically, we have a structure. And that structure has ruled our lives for many, many, many years. And now all of a sudden, there is no structure. We love the fact that there’s no structure for a while in phase one because we love it being like the vacation phase. We get up when we want, we do what we want. We go where we want, when we want, if we want, with whom we want no structure. We love it for a while.

Riley Moynes [00:19:26]:
But there is something, I’m convinced, which is genetically wired into us, Wes, that says you need a structure. And I discovered that ultimately, yes, we do. We lose that structure in phase two. That’s one of losses. The second loss is identity. Many of us identify with the work that we do, whether it be in home or whether it be outside the home, it doesn’t matter. And when we walk away from that for the last time, a part of us is lost as well. So that’s the second loss.

Riley Moynes [00:19:59]:
The third loss is relationships that we build up over a period of time. Many of our relationships perhaps become good, close personal friends. But when we walk away from that, we walk away from at least some of those relationships. And although we can go back and have coffee with the guys or the gals once in a while, as I did a few times, you know, Darn, well, when you do so that you’re a fifth wheel, they’re still in it, you’re out of it, and you don’t do that for all that many times. So that’s relationships. The fourth loss is a loss of purpose because many of us get deep purpose from what we do, whatever it may be. When we walk away for the last time, we’re just a guy or a gal in the street. And that purpose has been lost for many of us.

Wes Moss [00:20:50]:
You’re referring to, though, our careers. So the purpose for 95% of folks that financially get to a point where they can walk away. I’m the guy on the street now, but I’ve got enough money to be on the street and do what I want to do. But I have lost the purpose of.

Riley Moynes [00:21:06]:
My, of my work and I’ve also lost the power because many of us over a period of time acquire some power, whether it’s through control of budget or personnel, whatever it might be. And again, when we walk away for the last time, that’s lost as well.

Wes Moss [00:21:26]:
That’s one that. You’re right. I think that, that’s one that. I think it’s hard for people to reconcile because you don’t, I think power, I guess the way you’re stating it, it’s something that’s so gradual that you may not realize that that’s part of the framework. It’s like, you know, you get, you start working in your 20s, you got, you got no power.

Riley Moynes [00:21:49]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:21:49]:
And then you just gradually, in almost in any career.

Riley Moynes [00:21:54]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:21:54]:
As long as you’re progressing, you do. You have more and more responsibility. More people report to you. And you ultimately, without really, maybe even thinking about it, you really do have a much greater sense of power, which is the cousin of responsibility, which is the cousin of purpose. And it’s one of the things that I don’t think many people talk about. But that is, that’s a, that’s why I think it’s a kind of a fascinating thing to bring up.

Riley Moynes [00:22:18]:
Yeah, it is. So these five losses are all directly associated with retirement. We lose them all at the same time. We don’t see them coming. And it’s like, bang. It is traumatic for many, many people. And it gets worse.

Wes Moss [00:22:42]:
Great. But then it gets worse.

Riley Moynes [00:22:44]:
Yeah. Now there is hope down the road. Hang in there. But it gets worse because in addition to the five losses directly associated with retirement, we also have to deal with the 3D’s physical decline. And so, you know, that silky smooth golf swing that we had for all those Years isn’t so silky smooth anymore. And there is some mental decline like where did I put my keys? And you know, where’s the, where’s the remote for the television, dear? Where did you put that kind of thing? Then there is depression. The world famous Mayo Clinic has indicated that there is a 40% likelihood that when you retire you will evidence or experience some types of clinical depression. 40% likelihood.

Riley Moynes [00:23:41]:
And thirdly, there’s divorce. And the rates for divorce of people over 50 have doubled since 1990. And for people over 65, they have tripled since 1990. Wow.

Wes Moss [00:24:01]:
Yeah, wow.

Riley Moynes [00:24:03]:
That is on top of the five significant losses that most people suffer directly related to retirement. These other three losses are directly or at least related more to a time of life than retirement. But that time of life often overlaps retirement.

Wes Moss [00:24:22]:
Right. Because in a sense, in general, you’re speaking to folks who are in their 60s. Right? That’s in general, that’s the overlap. So it’s five losses. So it’s your structure, your identity, your relationships, your purpose, your power, which I think is fascinating to talk about. And no one has ever brought that up here on retire sooner. And then on top of that, you’ve got the inevitable decline. Physically slash mentally.

Wes Moss [00:24:53]:
Then you’ve got 40% higher chance of now hitting depression and then divorce 2x or 3x, which is kind of staggering. But it makes sense. The confluence of all that makes life.

Riley Moynes [00:25:08]:
And relationships tough, leading to this statistic, which is, again, mind boggling to me, the highest rate of suicide in North America today. Men over 75.

Wes Moss [00:25:22]:
So men over 75. And that’s not because someone is already feeling again. I guess it’s, it’s, there’s a lot to that statistic, but it is, yeah. Not just, hey, somebody who’s already sick and says, I’m done with this. But no, it’s, it’s, there’s got to be some real sense of despair.

Riley Moynes [00:25:43]:
Yeah, yeah. Around, around all of these five losses and the three Ds and the combination can be, can be lethal. Can be lethal.

Wes Moss [00:25:54]:
Women not know. The statistics aren’t as bad for women.

Riley Moynes [00:25:58]:
Not quite. One of the things that becomes really significant that I don’t say very much about is that coincidentally, with this time of life, phase two, gambling addictions, drug and alcohol addictions as well, tend to skyrocket. Again, I haven’t broken it down between men and women, but yeah, the statistics are kind of scary.

Wes Moss [00:26:32]:
And you were in that phase. How would you describe it? And how long was it? And was it when you were searching for these answers, which doesn’t sound that bad. That sounds like kind of a fun journey.

Riley Moynes [00:26:43]:
No, that was maybe phase three for you. I attribute that for me as part of my kind of recovery. In phase three, I was lucky in the sense that I think for me, phase two lasted for a relatively short period of time. I think, in retrospect, perhaps six months or so. And it wasn’t nearly as deep for me as it has been for other people that I’ve interviewed.

Wes Moss [00:27:12]:
So then the phase three, which is you call this trial and error, which it sounds like that’s what you were doing. And what are some other examples of that? I know that you’ve. I mean, you’ve interviewed so many people around this.

Riley Moynes [00:27:26]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:27:26]:
What does that process look like for people? What are the fumbles that people try? What are the things that people start they think are going to be good and then they’re not so good?

Riley Moynes [00:27:35]:
Yeah, well, I guess to arrive at that point, one sort of has to hit bottom. And at some point, people say to themselves or to a significant other, I can’t go on like this. I don’t want to go on feeling like this for the rest of my life, which could be up to 30 years or so. I just can’t do it. And that’s a good point in the sense that it’s kind of the bottom. And we can kind of feel with all of it that we’ve been kind of hit by a bus. And most people decide, I can’t go on like this. I’ve got to try something different.

Riley Moynes [00:28:19]:
And that’s when they start to move into phase three. That’s when what I say is that the rehab begins in phase three. And it is, and it constitutes trial and error. So what you have to do at that point is to say to yourselves, what is it that’s going to make me want to get up in the morning again? It’s kind of that simple. What do I have to do to make my life more meaningful than it has been for a period of time? How can I, in other words, squeeze all the juice out of retirement? And for me and for many others that I’ve interviewed, it involved kind of throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks would be a way to put it. So for me, I can give you kind of three quick personal examples. I served for a period of time on a condo board. Usually during our workshops, I paused there, and people smile and because some of them have been there, giggle at giggle.

Riley Moynes [00:29:23]:
And I’ll say, until I get tired of being yelled at.

Wes Moss [00:29:27]:
Say that again until I get tired.

Riley Moynes [00:29:28]:
Of being yelled at. And one time we decided that instead of planting the traditional daffodils on our property in Florida, we’re going to plant daisies instead. And we got yelled at. So, you know, that didn’t work all that well. I thought about law school. I’d always been interested in law school and that concept. And I realized, you know, that’s a big bite and there’s a big investment there time wise. And I wasn’t sure that I was up to that.

Riley Moynes [00:30:01]:
And then I thought about, well, maybe I could become a paralegal. And I thought, well, you know, there’s less time involved there. But I really didn’t want to spend most of my time fighting over speeding tickets at small claims court. But there was a component of that that really did appeal to me and it was alternate dispute resolution or mediation. I took a number of courses for about three year period and thought that there was an opportunity there to do something meaningful. It went nowhere. It just went nowhere. I love to write, so I thought, well, maybe, maybe I could help people who are retiring.

Riley Moynes [00:30:42]:
Some people want to write about, you know, family history or memoirs. And so I put together a beautiful little package called getting started on your memoirs. And so far it has received what I could term limited results.

Wes Moss [00:30:59]:
So you sold it? Just didn’t sell a lot of copies.

Riley Moynes [00:31:03]:
Just didn’t sell? No, not very. Not very popular. So those are just three examples. I could go on and on, but I won’t. But you get, you get the point. You’ve got to try something that you think might work for you and you got to keep at it. Because what I’ve seen is for me and for some other people, they finally discovered what it was that could allow them to break through to phase four. Hallelujah.

Riley Moynes [00:31:32]:
But there are some people who keep trying and trying and beating their heads against the wall and they can’t break through and they slip back into phase two. That is among the hardest things to see that I have witnessed.

Wes Moss [00:31:46]:
So the trial and error phase. And I think it’s just, look, this is not all roses here is that. It’s not a guaranteed escape. No, not everybody breaks through. And I guess I do see this. I don’t think people want to admit it. I don’t think that retirees, Riley particularly. I’m the guy that writes about what.

Wes Moss [00:32:13]:
I write about happiness in retirement, what retirees should be doing. And again, I approach this in a slightly different way. But I really love your framework here. I guess I don’t always get folks that are telling me that they continue to not break through. It’s like they don’t. I don’t know if people want to tell me. I didn’t get to be. I’m not figuring this thing out.

Wes Moss [00:32:34]:
And though I suspect that more people are. So many more people are struggling with this than we really know. I mean, again, 10,000 people times however many days it’s been since that demographic statistics started. But it is millions and millions of people. And we know that you can try a bunch of stuff and it doesn’t stick. And it doesn’t stick, and it doesn’t stick, and you end up back into the, you know, the three Ds and the five losses. Is there anything where. Do you have any other advice around that for somebody who is still struggling? Is there anything that you’ve seen that maybe gets more creative? Is it a level of proactivity and socialization? Are there groups that kind of help people rediscover what they should be doing? What are some of your thoughts around breaking through for the people that are having a hard time?

Riley Moynes [00:33:29]:
First of all, I estimate, Wes, that only between 60 and 65% of people break through to phase four. I can’t validate that in any scientific way, but it’s been my experience. I believe it’s relatively accurate and it’s somewhat discouraging. So what we’ve taken to doing in our workshops is to try to provide people with four strategies that they can use to help them break through to phase four. But in terms of dealing with it, I would say socialization is an important element of getting to phase four. People who kind of lock themselves away are more likely a to be depressed and less likely to discover an idea or an involvement that may lead to some really positive things for them. So I think it’s really critical to be social and to continue to be involved in community of some sort. Activities of some sort.

Riley Moynes [00:34:40]:
And that’s really part of leading into phase four, which I’d love to get to because it’s the most satisfying and gratifying of the four phases, for sure.

Wes Moss [00:34:50]:
Hold up. We’re not there yet. We’re not there yet. We’re making people wait for just one minute. So socialization and that one to be, I would say, Riley, makes the most sense because it’s conversation begets ideas, and then ideas beget conversation. And that snowball can really be productive. There’s a flywheel effect there.

Riley Moynes [00:35:11]:
Yep.

Wes Moss [00:35:12]:
What are some of the. What do you say that you’ve. There’s a couple more. What’s another one or two keys to breaking through?

Riley Moynes [00:35:20]:
Well, another key is because I found that if there is a consistent theme in people who reach phase four, it is providing service to others. It’s as simple as that. It makes us feel good. It gives us a sense of making a contribution. And I think deep down, virtually everyone wants to leave the world a slightly better place than they found it if they can. And that’s an important component of phase four.

Wes Moss [00:35:59]:
Yeah. So we’re in trial and error. We’re socializing. Hopefully we figure out our next calling, our next purpose. Part of that may be service, but that still doesn’t necessarily get you fully to phase four just yet. So let’s talk about that. Reinvest and rewire.

Riley Moynes [00:36:21]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:36:21]:
Phase number four.

Riley Moynes [00:36:22]:
Yeah. I believe that there are some really key components that can help people to reinvent and rewire. The first of those, and again, it’s one of the tools that we use in our workshop is to. First of all, I found that people have this idea that whatever they’ve done for the last 40 years or so, they worked pretty hard at it. And they have a sense that retirement should kind of be a coast, and it’s not, and it shouldn’t be viewed as a coast. And I found along with that that we tend not to be particularly introspective unless we are forced to do so. So I encourage people, I ask people, you need to identify what your uniqueness ability is. And when I say unique ability, I don’t mean unique in the sense that no one else on earth has that ability, but I describe it as, what are the thing or things that you love to do and that you know darn well you do exceedingly well.

Riley Moynes [00:37:34]:
And we take some time in our. In our workshop to force people to think about those things and at least to make a start of writing some of those things down, because we just don’t usually think about that. But it’s an important component of reinventing and rewiring. We need to know what our strengths and what our loves are, because we’re going to use them maybe in an entirely different way than we’ve ever used them before in the past. But those are things that we have in our quiver, as it were. That’s ammunition we can use, and we need to know what the heck that is. So the second thing that we encourage people to do is to identify just five victories, wins, successes that they’ve experienced so far in their lives. And I know given time, people could generally do way more than those.

Riley Moynes [00:38:29]:
But just to look at, for the purposes of the workshop and the discussion and getting things started, think of just five victories that you’ve experienced in the past. Then I ask people to look at what their unique ability is, things they love to do and do really well, and look at the five successes that they’ve listed there. And guess what? They don’t often see this. And it boggles my mind. There’s a connection. The things that you love to do and do really well have led to successes for you in the past. Hello. So use that, build on that.

Riley Moynes [00:39:11]:
And then fourthly, we try to take all of that stuff into account. Things they love to do, do really well that have led to success in the past. And then we ask people to consider what’s in it for you, because there has to be something in it for you. Maybe it’s remuneration, but maybe it’s just a psychic feeling of knowing darn well that you’ve done something good. And I put that all together and it. It involves, generally speaking, service to others.

Wes Moss [00:39:51]:
Giving. As Mitch Album says in his books, the author of Tuesdays with Maury, giving is living. Yeah, but that’s where you see people arrive at that. That’s when they’re arriving in the phase four you want, we all want to be in.

Riley Moynes [00:40:08]:
Exactly. And it can take so many different forms, of course, from, you know, from mentoring students to one fellow that I interviewed, he sets aside about three or four hours a week on Fridays, and he delivers hot, piping hot, delicious pizzas to people. He gets a little bit of beer money for it, but he just loves arriving on people’s doorstep when they’re hungry, they’re looking for him. He gets pretty good tips, he says, but that was kind of a side effect. It just makes him feel good to do something like that. And he walks away with a big smile on his face. It can be so simple.

Wes Moss [00:40:53]:
I feel like I’ve met that guy only once because I just remember most pizza deliveries, it’s a drop off. It’s a quick, but sometimes like one out of every 50. The guy that brings the pizza is so psyched to give you the pizza. He’s like, doesn’t this smell great? This is going to be great. You guys are going to love it. Kids are like looking out the window, the dog’s tongue and nose on the window. You know, Jake is like, you know, my kids are panting and he’s like, hey, I got your pizzas. And yeah, so simple thing.

Wes Moss [00:41:31]:
It’s a real thing. If you want it to be. It’s a real thing if you want it to be.

Riley Moynes [00:41:34]:
Absolutely. But there are just so many ways that we can get involved, either, you know, for minor remuneration or on a volunteer basis that all kinds of organizations that need. That need help. And I introduced you. I think you saw it in the TED Talk about the old coots giving advice. And people who kind of meet together from time to time have got a breadth and length of experience that these folks just wanted to share with others. And now they’ve become, according to them, the most popular booth at the Farmer’s Market in Salt Lake City. And they’ve got their own podcast every week.

Riley Moynes [00:42:20]:
Podcast on all the available platforms. Ol Coots giving advice.

Wes Moss [00:42:26]:
I haven’t listened to that yet, but I need to. So then does that also. I suspect that reshapes your social configuration. And I also. One of the themes here that I’m hearing from you is that it. And again, I’m the same way here, thinking about this next phase. You think you don’t want it to be difficult or hard, but you’re essentially saying it doesn’t really work unless it is a little bit difficult and a little bit hard because that’s what has helped you feel like you have some purpose. Right? Or is that.

Wes Moss [00:43:07]:
Am I reading that wrong?

Riley Moynes [00:43:08]:
No, I think you’re reading it exactly right. We expect to coast in retirement. Many people do. And you can’t expect to do that. There has to be some work involved. And I call it introspection that we’re not always all that good at unless kind of forced to do so. But by being introspective, we can kind of cull some of these things and be reminded of the things that we love to do and. And do very well and have led to success in the past.

Riley Moynes [00:43:35]:
And maybe we can apply them in a different way than we’ve ever applied them before, because we’ve all got things that we do really well and love to do and have led to success. So why not apply them in whatever situation might present itself?

Wes Moss [00:43:52]:
You refer to. I read this somewhere. The brain and the bicycle. Tell our listeners what you mean by that.

Riley Moynes [00:44:01]:
Well, the analogy that we use is that the. The brain in. In many ways is like a bicycle, in that a bicycle performs at peak performance when it’s working hard, when it’s whistling along the road, and. And it’s just. It’s moving quickly and it’s efficient and it’s effective and it gets you where you want to go. And the brain is kind of like that. As well. We need to keep challenging our brain to make it work at kind of top echelon performance.

Riley Moynes [00:44:36]:
And if we kind of get away from that, if we retreat and if we isolate ourselves, the brain kind of like a bicycle that slows down, kind of gets wobbly and then finally kind of falls over. It just, it needs to be used. It’s kind of like our heart in the same way it needs to be used to be exercised. And in many cases we kind of think that that’s not part of the job or not necessary in retirement.

Wes Moss [00:45:06]:
When you work with either firms or individually. Tell us about the workshops. You do these. Do you have 10 people sign up online or 100 people sign up and then you just do them, or do you typically do them through an advisory type firm? How does it usually work?

Riley Moynes [00:45:21]:
It usually works west through advisory firms. People who have either heard me speak at conferences or perhaps have watched the TED talk or read the book, whatever it might be. But these are advisors who understand that there’s more to complete retirement planning than they typically deliver because they typically deliver the financial and the estate and the powers of attorney and perhaps insurance. They deliver that part. But it mostly comes, as I say, from advisors who realize that this psychological part of it, these challenges are things that their clients are going to, if they haven’t already experienced and they need to address them. And so they’re the ones who are most likely to invite me to speak to their, to their clients and, or prospects. And as well again, I speak to a number of financial organizations who are holding annual conferences and that sort of thing.

Wes Moss [00:46:21]:
What’s the structure of it? How many hours do people take this? And in what is it, one sitting? Is it multiple sittings? How do you like to do it? Best idea?

Riley Moynes [00:46:30]:
Well, the way it works best in my experience is that it’s done live. We’ve done a number of zoom during the pandemic and so on, and it can be done that way. But there’s something special about an in person presentation and the vibes that are in the room and the conversations that take place amongst people. So typically it lasts for 60 to 90 minutes depending on the preference of the advisor. And we will always introduce these four strategies and we provide time for people to work on them. In the 60 minute presentation it’s for a shorter period of time. In the 90 minute presentation there’s a more extended time that people can work on these. And so ideally it begins with the assumption, and we cover a number of the material, much of the material that we’ve covered here in our conversation today.

Riley Moynes [00:47:27]:
But the purpose is to help people reach phase four because there’s no question in my mind that that’s where they want to spend as much of their retirement time as possible. And so then we try to equip them as best we can during that period of time to do so. And then people move on and hopefully they can apply some of those principles and discover where it is that they’d like to apply their unique ability and so on going forward.

Wes Moss [00:47:55]:
Yeah, it’s funny to think about. You’ve got such a long, bumpy journey. It’s funny to think about how just a focus for an hour or two could really make a really big difference because it forces you to think about something that theorially dichotomized between what you think it should be and what it really is. And you never get to the answer.

Riley Moynes [00:48:15]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:48:15]:
Have you ever done this over longer periods where you have people come back and it’s even more workshop oriented or just not at this point?

Riley Moynes [00:48:25]:
Not at this point. I’ve considered it and I have talked to a number of people who have encouraged me to do that. To be perfectly honest though, at this point I’m as busy as I want to be doing the 60 or 90 minute work workshops.

Wes Moss [00:48:42]:
And look guys, an hour and a half is enough. There’s only so much. I’m already in phase four. I don’t need to do this thing for four days.

Riley Moynes [00:48:50]:
I would love to do more because I’ve got all kinds of material that I’ve been collecting and developing over the years that could make it happen. As I say, I just haven’t got there yet.

Wes Moss [00:49:04]:
The one thing I wanted to circle back to, I had originally asked and I said we put a pin in it for just a minute would be. And I suspect the answer is that there’s no reason age should not matter on these phases. Yeah, they really shouldn’t matter. However, do you have any thoughts around somebody who’s 40, 45 if they’re a little bit. If they’re not in that normal retirement age zone or does that shouldn’t really matter?

Riley Moynes [00:49:34]:
What I find, certainly that group is probably the second largest group that I generally speak to and they usually are part of the larger group of folks who are very close to retirement or already retired. But what I’ve been told is that for those folks, they have never thought about the approach using this framework and it’s helpful to them to have a kind of a heads up as to what they can expect and in effect by Providing them with some of these strategies that we think have proven to be helpful. They can kind of be thinking about this sort of thing in advance of what they might have been thinking about as they approach.

Wes Moss [00:50:20]:
So really that’s the goal. If we’re aware of this and we’re aware of these phases, then we don’t really have to. I mean, again, ideally, Riley, you’re not having to get mired down in really in phase two and that’s a much shorter period of time. Or maybe you skip it.

Riley Moynes [00:50:40]:
Yeah, maybe you can and you skip.

Wes Moss [00:50:42]:
The two years of trial and error and then maybe you don’t even get out of it. So the point then is to understand these phases and essentially get to phase four as quickly as you can. And if you work at it, that you’ve seen people do that.

Riley Moynes [00:50:58]:
Absolutely. There are two groups of people and your question leads into that. There are two groups of people that I have found have been able to avoid phases two and three. They tend, I think they constitute about 10% of retirees. Again, that’s a kind of an educated guess. About 10%, I think. And those two groups are these. Number one.

Wes Moss [00:51:26]:
Hold on, I’m sorry, 10% that skip right to phase four.

Riley Moynes [00:51:30]:
Yes.

Wes Moss [00:51:31]:
Okay, but what are the two groups again?

Riley Moynes [00:51:33]:
Well, the first group are entrepreneurs. People who have been doing what they’ve been doing for a number of years. They love what they’re doing and their goal is to perhaps do slightly less of it going forward as they prepare, perhaps the next generation or they’ve identified someone who’s going to take over for them at some point. But for now they are happy doing what they’ve been doing, perhaps at a little more relaxed pace. So they may enjoy phase one. They don’t have to deal with phases two or three because they know what their unique ability is, they know what they love to do, they know what’s led to success in the past and they’re going to keep doing it as long as they can.

Wes Moss [00:52:17]:
Okay, that makes sense. And that goes back to the conversation that I had about Garth brooks and the 45 year old entrepreneur. Man or woman doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you’re 35 or 45, but it’s essentially if the entrepreneur stays in, let’s say, the game to some extent, then they can back off the 60 hour weeks or 70 hour weeks and they still have their purpose, they still have their socialization, they still have their network. And they shift their mindset then from kind of skip right over vacation mode. They already know, phase two, they get to phase four. I’m sorry. Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:53:00]:
They don’t have to deal with phase two, the loss so much. They already figured out the trial and error, and then they shift their focus from maybe just always building and growing and building and growing for, let’s say, their economic interest and their company’s interest to the next generation. That’s the way the entrepreneur does. Okay, what’s group number two?

Riley Moynes [00:53:23]:
Well, the second, and you know, before we leave that one, if I may just say I’m just. I’m working with a group of entrepreneurs right now, about a dozen in number, and they’re interested in going beyond what we’ve just described, because what they’re saying is we expect that there will come a time when we are working at our entrepreneurial enterprise for as little as we want to. But then what? But then what?

Wes Moss [00:53:55]:
Yeah, I wanted to. Yeah. Do you have an answer for that one?

Riley Moynes [00:53:57]:
Well, again, I come back to yes, because it’s phase four is service to others. So we’re going to be exploring some ways, we’re going to be asking them to identify again, some of the things we’ve already talked about that they can use as a springboard for service to others in different ways than they might have in the past. So that’s a preparation that I’m working on right now. It’s the first time I’ve done it, and to me it sounds very exciting. I’m looking forward to that.

Wes Moss [00:54:29]:
I’m excited because this is breaking news. This is breaking news on the Retire Sooner podcast.

Riley Moynes [00:54:33]:
It is. The second group are people who, during their working or domestic careers, had identified a love, a hobby that, that got them through and that they did throughout their working or domestic career. And for them, they just can’t wait to get going to do more of it. Whether it’s coaching, whether it’s photography, whether it’s, whatever it might be, teaching bridge, teaching art, whatever it is, they just can’t wait to get to do more of it. So they tend to avoid phases two and three as well. But I believe, as I say, that that two pronged group constitutes about 10% of retirees. Oh, okay.

Wes Moss [00:55:16]:
And then the other 90%, to some extent has to kind of labor through. Yes, the first three phases. That’s just the reality of the world.

Riley Moynes [00:55:27]:
Yes.

Wes Moss [00:55:28]:
Unless you’re an entrepreneur or you have some burgeoning hobby you just can’t wait to do more of.

Riley Moynes [00:55:32]:
That’s right. Hopefully they will experience all four phases, but certainly most importantly, they will get to phase four. But yes. 90% of retirees, I believe, are going to deal with those four phases for whatever length of time it might be. And of course, that varies tremendously and at whatever depth, they might experience each of the phases as well.

Wes Moss [00:55:56]:
Riley, thank you so much. I feel like there’s such a cool. To your point, the framework, I think for so many of us, it goes back to your idea of structure. We need a structure. And a framework is a structure. And a framework is a nice, simple, yet challenging group of steps that we just need to be prepared for. And if we can know about it early, we can skip over the tougher parts with better shock absorbers. What.

Wes Moss [00:56:26]:
So you’ve already said kind of what you’re working on next, which is this group of entrepreneurs. It still seems to. It still goes back to service. Yeah, service to others still goes back there. What else are you either working on, by the way? I, for some reason I could not find. I suspect you have a PhD. What is it in? I don’t know if that’s in education. So you have a PhD in education.

Wes Moss [00:56:49]:
Gotcha. Okay.

Riley Moynes [00:56:50]:
Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:56:51]:
Okay. Do people connect with you and do workshops? I know you said it’s mostly through advisory firms, but where do we find you?

Riley Moynes [00:57:00]:
The4 phases.com is our website.

Wes Moss [00:57:05]:
The4 phases.com. okay.

Riley Moynes [00:57:07]:
Yeah. And people can purchase copies of the book through that website and can make arrangements for workshops should they wish to discuss that as well. Yeah.

Wes Moss [00:57:19]:
So to some extent, as we wrap up, are you. You’re just perpetually in service to others and working, I suspect. What is your most fun thing now? Do you ever feel like you’re going on vacation now, even though you’ve been on. Been in retirement? Do you get the feeling of vacation still? And what are your favorite things to do and where to go?

Riley Moynes [00:57:41]:
Well, we’ve. For a number of years, we’ve been able to spend a significant amount of time at our place in Florida on the, on the Gulf coast, and we look forward to doing that. We’re part of a community down there that we’ve been part of for a number of years and enjoy doing that. We enjoy. We enjoy cruising from time to time. I volunteer every Friday morning at our local hospital, and I’m a member of what we euphemistically call the welcome Team. And what we’ve discovered, what I’ve discovered is that, first of all, nobody comes to the hospital for the fun of it and that there’s a group of people who come through the hospital doors and you can just. I can tell by the look on their face that they are under stress, they need help.

Riley Moynes [00:58:28]:
And so my mission is to approach those folks, ask if I can be of any help, and whenever we can, we take them to the portion of the hospital that they need to go rather than giving them directions to get there. And I can just see the sense of relief that comes over some of these people’s faces when I’m happy to say, I’ll take you there. And they’re just so relieved and so grateful. And it’s a very gratifying experience that I experience every Friday morning from 8am until noon. And what’s in it for me is a gate, a feeling that I’m making a contribution. And in addition to that I put 10 to 12,000 steps on my fitbit.

Wes Moss [00:59:10]:
I love that mission and I think you’ve helped our mission here on the Retire Sooner podcast, which is to help families find happiness in retirement and to help a million folks retire at least one year sooner. And after your work today, hopefully skip right to face.

Riley Moynes [00:59:31]:
Yeah. Oh, that would be the goal.

Wes Moss [00:59:33]:
All right, my friend, thank you so much for being here today. I’m so glad we found you.

Riley Moynes [00:59:37]:
Yeah, thank you Wes. I appreciate the opportunity to share some of the work that I’ve been doing and to spread the word.

Mallory [00:59:44]:
Hey y’all, this is Mallory with the Retire Sooner team. Please be sure to rate and subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. If you have any questions, you can find us@westmoss.com that’s W E S Mo S. You can also follow us on Instagram and YouTube. You’ll find us under the handle Retire Sooner podcast. And now for our show’s disclosure. This information is provided to you as a resource for informational purposes only and is not to be viewed as investment advice or recommendations. Investing involves risk, including the possible loss of principal.

Mallory [01:00:15]:
There is no guaranteed offer that investment, return, yield or performance will be achieved. Stock prices fluctuate sometimes rapidly and dramatically due to factors affecting individual companies, particular industries or sectors, or general market conditions. For stocks paying dividends, dividends are not guaranteed and can increase, decrease, or be eliminated without notice. Fixed income securities involve interest rate, credit, inflation and reinvestment risks and possible loss of principal. As interest rates rise, the value of fixed income securities falls. Past performance is not indicative of future results. When considering any investment vehicle, this information is being presented without consideration of the investment objectives, risk tolerance, or financial circumstances of any specific investor and might not be suitable for all investors. Investment decisions should not be based solely on information contained here.

Mallory [01:01:00]:
This information is not intended to and should not form a primary basis for any investment decision that you may make. Always consult your own legal tax or investment advisor before making any investment tax, estate or financial planning considerations or decisions. The information contained here is strictly an opinion and it is not known whether the strategies will be successful. The views and opinions expressed are for educational purposes only as of the date of production and may change without notice at any time based on numerous factors such as market and other conditions.